The Real Dirt

Tyson L. Traw, PE


TRAW PG. 574-587 (LINES 11-18)


11·· · · · · · · · It says, "What's the understanding of the

12··purpose of TCEQ's MSW regulations?"

13·· · · · · · · · And your answer was, "The MSW regulations

14··provide standards for the design, permitting, and

15··operation of the facility to protect human health and

16··welfare and the environment."

17·· · · · · · · · My question is, what things are you

18··reviewing, analyzing to protect human health and

19··welfare?··What are you looking at to meet that


21·· · · A· ··Well, certainly I'm guided by the rules.··And

22··we went over those earlier with Mr. Tatu, so those would

23··be 330.305, among some others.··So certainly those are

24··the first place I would look.··But then, I guess,

25··generally my duties as an engineer is to protect the

1··health and safety of the general public.



TRAW PG. 577-575 (LINES 2-1)


2·· · · Q· ··So on Page 64, the question by Ms. Perales was,

3··"Okay.··So what was your responsibility in relationship

4··to the floodplain analysis."

5·· · · · · · · · Did I read that cporrect?

6·· · · A· ··Yes, you did.

7·· · · Q· ··We're at Page 64, Line 9 and 10.

8·· · · · · · · · What was your answer?

9·· · · A· ··It says, "I determined where the floodplain --

10··I used modeling to determine where the floodplain was in

11··conjunction with the available maps from FEMA."

12·· · · Q· ··And then the next question at Line 14 from

13··Ms. Perales says, "Is it fair to say that the proposed

14··landfill is pretty close and pretty much abuts the

15··floodplain in several areas?"

16·· · · · · · · · And your answer was?

17·· · · A· ··"I'm not sure."

18·· · · Q· ··Then Ms. Perales asked at Line 18, "Okay.··So

19··that's not something you looked up.··The proximity of

20··the proposed landfill to the floodplain."

21·· · · · · · · · Your answer was?

22·· · · A· ··"I wasn't responsible for determining the

23··footprint, no."

24·· · · Q· ··Okay.··So what changed from your deposition to

25··today that now you're giving testimony that you do know

1··where the landfill footprint is in proximity to the


3·· · · A· ··Well, I -- I wish you would have left that up

4··here, because I think it's important to read

5··Ms. Perales' question there.··And she had several words

6··that talked about proximity and abut.··So the question

7··wasn't whether or not I know where the flood -- where

8··the landfill footprint is in relation to the floodplain.

9··It was more a qualitative question about how close it

10··may or may not be.

11·· · · Q· ··Okay.··So when you said you weren't sure if it

12··abuts the landfill, what did you mean?

13·· · · A· ··I -- I wasn't necessarily responding to just

14··that portion of her question.··It was broader than that.

15·· · · Q· ··Okay.··Okay.

16·· · · · · · · · "Is it fair to say that the proposed

17··landfill is pretty close and pretty much abuts the

18··floodplain in several areas?"

19·· · · · · · · · Your answer, "I'm not sure."

20·· · · · · · · · What did you mean by that?

21·· · · A· ··I'm -- can you refer me to what line that was

22··again so I can read it?

23·· · · Q· ··Sure.··I'll bring it back up there, because I

24··don't think you have a copy.

25·· · · A· ··No, I'm not sure that I do.

1·· · · · · · · · MR. MAGEE:··May I approach again?

2·· · · · · · · · JUDGE QUALTROUGH:··Yes.

3·· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:··We need two copies of that,

4··don't we?

5·· · · Q· ··(BY MR. MAGEE)··Yes.··Right here, 14.··Do you

6··remember my question?

7·· · · A· ··No, I don't.

8·· · · Q· ··Okay.

9·· · · A· ··I'm sorry.

10·· · · Q· ··That's okay.··So what part of that question was

11··different that you're not understanding my question

12··today?··I mean, at that time you said you're not sure

13··whether it abuts the floodplain or is pretty close.

14·· · · A· ··I disagree with that's what I said.

15·· · · Q· ··Okay.

16·· · · A· ··I think her question is, "Is it fair to say

17··that the proposed landfill is pretty close and pretty

18··much abuts the floodplain in several areas."

19·· · · Q· ··And your answer was?

20·· · · A· ··"I'm not sure."

21·· · · Q· ··Okay.··Why are you not sure?

22·· · · A· ··Well, I'm not sure what her definition of

23··pretty close is.··I can tell you what mine is, and I can

24··show you on a map where the landfill footprint is in

25··relation to the floodplain.
·1·· · · Q· ··Okay.··So the next question says, "Okay.··So

2··that's not something you'd look up, the proximity of the


3··proposed landfill to the floodplain."··Okay?··Right?

4·· · · A· ··Well, in this context of this question, we're

5··really talking about -- she asked a question similar to

6··the one you previously did about how the landfill was

7··sited in relation to the floodplain, which I did not do.

8··I calculated the floodplain and then provided that

9··information to Mr. Adams.

10·· · · Q· ··Okay.

11·· · · A· ··So I'm answering in context with the siting of

12··the landfill.

13·· · · Q· ··Well, the word "siting" is not in there.··It

14··just says, "Okay.··So that's not something you looked

15··up, the proximity of the proposed landfill to the


17·· · · · · · · · And your answer was?

18·· · · A· ··"I wasn't responsible for determining the

19··footprint, no."

20·· · · Q· ··Okay.··So to you there's a distinction in the

21··word "proximity" and the landfill footprint.··Right?

22·· · · A· ··Well, again, in the context of the greater

23··discussion there, we were talking about whose

24··responsibility it was to determine where the landfill

25··footprint would be, in which that was not my


2·· · · Q· ··That's not the context.··I'm going to read it

3··again.··I hate to keep going over it.··She didn't ask

4··you about whose responsibility it was.··She asked you

5··simply, "So that's not something you looked up, the

6··proximity of the proposed landfill to the floodplain."

7··She didn't ask if it was your responsibility or someone

8··else's responsibility about the siting of it or the

9··footprint of it.··She just asked you whether you looked

10··up, her words, "the proximity."··And your answer was, "I

11··wasn't responsible for determining the footprint, no."

12·· · · A· ··Right.··And -- and what I'm saying is that in

13··the previous questions, we were -- we were at -- we were

14··talking about whose responsibility that was.

15·· · · · · · · · And so I was just making clear that it

16··wasn't my responsibility to determine where the

17··footprint was.··In fact, it changed over the process

18··because we would determine -- or I would determine where

19··the floodplain was and then hand that information off to

20··Mr. Adams.

21·· · · Q· ··Okay.··Well, let's go back, then.··On Page 64,

22··Line 5, her question was, "So you can't say for sure

23··whether the entire footprint is outside the floodplain?"

24·· · · · · · · · Do you see that question?··Did I read that


1·· · · A· ··Correct.

2·· · · Q· ··Your answer was, "It wasn't my responsibility

3··to determine the location of the footprint."

4·· · · · · · · · Did she ask you something about whose

5··responsibility it was to determine the footprint of the

6··landfill to the floodplain?

7·· · · A· ··I don't see it in this specific question.

8·· · · Q· ··Okay.··Then she followed up that question on

9··Line 9.··"So what was your responsibility in relation to

10··the floodplain analysis?"··Right?··Because you've made

11··it clear from the previous question it's not your

12··responsibility about the footprint.··Right?

13·· · · A· ··Correct.

14·· · · Q· ··Your answer is, "I determined where the

15··floodplain -- I used modeling to determine where the

16··floodplain was in conjunction with available maps from


18·· · · A· ··That -- that's what it says.

19·· · · Q· ··Okay.··Then she clarified one more time at

20··Line 14, "Is it fair to say that the proposed landfill

21··is pretty close or pretty much abuts the floodplain in

22··several areas?"

23·· · · · · · · · That's where you said, I'm not sure.

24·· · · · · · · · And then she went back to a similar

25··question like in Line 5 about the proximity, and you

1··made it clear it's -- "I wasn't responsible for

2··determining the footprint, no."··Correct?

3·· · · A· ··That's what it says.

4·· · · Q· ··Okay.··So whose responsibility was it to

5··determine the footprint?

6·· · · A· ··As I've previously said, Mr. Adams made that


8·· · · Q· ··So when we look at the various maps that have

9··been mentioned so far, we usually see an outline in

10··places of where the footprint is proposed to be in the

11··maps you've looked at today.··Do you want me to give you

12··an example of one?

13·· · · A· ··That would be great.

14·· · · Q· ··So look at Page 257 -- EP-2, Page 257.

15·· · · A· ··(Witness complies).

16·· · · Q· ··Are you with me?

17·· · · A· ··Yes, I am.

18·· · · Q· ··So the red line that indicates landfill

19··footprint, who drew that line on this map?

20·· · · A· ··Well, the person that actually draws the map

21··would have been addressed.··I'm not sure who exactly

22··drew this one.··We use several different ones.

23·· · · Q· ··Okay.··So you didn't draw the landfill

24··footprint on any of these maps.··Right?

25·· · · A· ··I didn't sit at the computer and place that on

1··there, no.

2·· · · Q· ··Okay.··So you weren't determining where the

3··footprint was and how it looks on this particular map?

4·· · · A· ··No.··I don't believe that's what I said.··I

5··said I didn't sit at the computer and draw this or put

6··this on the map.

7·· · · Q· ··So did you sit at the computer and determine

8··that this is the shape of the footprint and what it

9··should look like in correlation to this map?

10·· · · A· ··Well, I can talk about the process if that

11··clears it up, how we would do this.

12·· · · Q· ··I'm just trying to understand whether the map

13··that you sealed on Page 257 that shows the positioning

14··of the landfill, what role you played in making that


16·· · · A· ··Okay.··Well, so this map would have been

17··prepared by the draftsman.··And then I would review the

18··map.··It may have been on -- on the computer, I might

19··have reviewed it, or I might have done it on the paper

20··copy.··Then once I reviewed all of that, then I would

21··affix my seal to it, and that's how we're here today.

22·· · · Q· ··Okay.··And so what is your role in determining

23··the landfill footprint?··What responsibilities do you

24··have concerning the positioning of that footprint on

25··this map?

1·· · · A· ··Excuse me.··My moputh is getting dry.··So in

2··this case, the landfill footprint would have been

3··provided to -- to me and the draftsman that I used by

4··Mr. Adams.··The same way that the floodplain that I

5··determined would have been provided to him.

6·· · · Q· ··So your responsibility had nothing to do --

7··you're relying on Mr. Adams' work about this is what the

8··landfill is going to look like, and you're just

9··certifying, by placing your seal on it, that the data

10··that Mr. Adams relayed to you about the landfill

11··footprint, where it is in relationship to this


13·· · · A· ··Can you repeat that one more time for me?

14·· · · Q· ··Sure.··You mentioned that as far as the

15··floodplain goes, you provided some analysis and you

16··provided that data to Mr. Adams.··Correct?

17·· · · A· ··Yes.

18·· · · Q· ··And then Mr. Adams is the responsible party for

19··determining the landfill footprint.··Correct?

20·· · · A· ··Yes.

21·· · · Q· ··And he relayed that data to you or a draftsman?

22·· · · A· ··Yes.

23·· · · Q· ··Okay.··And so if we look at Page 257 of this

24··exhibit, you're not providing any testimony about the

25··landfill footprint.··You're only acknowledging that's

1··where it is proposed to be based on Mr. Adams'

2··information provided to you?

3·· · · A· ··I'm sorry.··I lost track of your question a


5·· · · Q· ··Okay.··Why is the landfill footprint on this


7·· · · A· ··The landfill footprint is on this map to

8··demonstrate that the landfill footprint is outside of

9··the floodplain.

10·· · · Q· ··And who made the determination to put the

11··landfill footprint in that particular location on this


13·· · · A· ··Well, the landfill footprint was determined by

14··Mr. Adams.··So the preparation of this map was done

15··under my supervision, using information that would have

16··been supplied to me by Mr. Adams.

17·· · · Q· ··And so the determination of where to put the

18··footprint on this particular map was not determined by

19··you, nor was it your responsibility?

20·· · · A· ··I think the problem is we're confused about how

21··this map gets prepared and how -- where that data comes


23·· · · Q· ··I'm not confused.

24·· · · A· ··Well, maybe it's just me, then.··I guess I'm

25··confused by your questions.

1·· · · Q· ··I just want to know if I can ask you questions

2··about the landfill footprint and its position on this

3··map, its shape, its design, and its relationship to the


5·· · · A· ··Well --

6·· · · Q· ··If that's not your responsibility, I can save

7··all of those questions for Mr. Adams.

8·· · · A· ··Well, it wasn't my responsibility to design or

9··locate where the landfill footprint is.··But again, I'm

10··certainly capable of determining that the landfill

11··footprint is outside of the floodplain in this case, and

12··it's made fairly clear on this map.

13·· · · Q· ··But it's not your responsibility of the

14··location of it?

15·· · · A· ··I didn't determine where the location would be

16··in the design process, no, I did not.

17·· · · Q· ··Okay.··I think that clears it up.

18·· · · A· ··Okay.



TRAW PG. 730-731 (LINES 10-22)


10·· · · Q· ··(BY MR. ALLMON)··Did you consider the potential

11··for upstream development in your analysis of the


13·· · · A· ··Well, I'm not sure what you mean by

14··"potential," but we did not consider upstream

15··development.··We considered the existing conditions.

16·· · · Q· ··So you didn't consider any potential for the

17··construction of additional houses or commercial


19·· · · A· ··Not -- not in the stormwater runoff analysis or

20··the hydrological analysis, no.

21·· · · Q· ··If there were further residential development,

22··could that add impermeable cover upstream of the


24·· · · A· ··It could.

25·· · · Q· ··And how would that potentially influence the

1··floodplain within the landfill?

2·· · · A· ··Well, I suspect it depends upon the manner of

3··that development.

4·· · · Q· ··Uh-huh.

5·· · · A· ··I think this question was asked a little bit

6··earlier.··Any more, whether it be county regulations or

7··municipal regulations, most development is required

8··to -- to mitigate their stormwater runoff in some way.

9··So it's possible that it would have little to no effect

10··depending upon how that development takes place.··It's

11··my understanding that Caldwell County development

12··ordinance has requirements for that mitigation.

13·· · · Q· ··Did you look in -- did you look into those

14··requirements in any way?

15·· · · A· ··I was only made aware of the Caldwell County

16··development ordinance after we prepared the analysis.

17·· · · Q· ··So did you consider how that ordinance would

18··impact the runoff from potential future development?

19·· · · A· ··I did not.

20·· · · Q· ··Do you have any opinion as to whether there is

21··development potential in the future in this area?

22·· · · A· ··I don't.